I have to agree with the owner here. After hearing both sides of the story, it seems like the customer was out of line. As a former barista, I know how crazy customers can get when they discover you don't serve frappuccinos or whatever.

Sounds like murky is trying to spin it so they dont look like elitist @$$holes. C'mon, really..."I know how you want your coffee better than you do"? That's pretty arrogant.

I just want to point out that Murky Coffee is pretty damn rad. If you have the misfortune of being in the DC area, it certainly is worth checking out.

~~~

Of course, the owner's suppliers would seem to strongly disagree with Nick's "knowledge" about iced espresso ruining the drink.

So he's pretentious AND doesn't know what he's talking about? Hell, if he at least was CORRECT it wouldn't be quite so stupid.

http://www.counterculturecoffee.com/docs/Imbibe_icedcoffee_2008.pdf

There are matters that demand an elevated heart rate. This is not one of them.

I thought that for most people caffeine does demand an elevated heart rate.

If someone tells me they won't serve me something because it "ruins the flavor" to do it that way, I tell them to fuck right off too. Generally I don't give them my money thereafter, but I can see the problem with there not being another coffee shop around.

If they think it ruins the flavor, that's fine, but maybe I don't. Maybe I have a different set of taste buds that respond to flavors differently than theirs. If they think it'll taste bad, they can warn me and I'll take my chances.

If I go into a burger joint and want my burger without onions, I've never had a problem getting it that way. The proprietor of the joint may believe that onions enhance the flavor of his burgers, and he may not like that I don't enjoy the taste, but he keeps his opinions to himself.

The more I think about this, and the more I read about both sides of the story, the more I start to believe that this wasn't such a case of being concerned for the flavor of their coffee, or their customers' overall satisfaction with their products. It has to do with the barista probably thinking he was trying to make a ghetto iced latte, then realizing he wasn't but not admitting to it, then the whole thing got out of hand. Nick Cho said himself that he always stands behind his employees. That's cool for his employees, but sometimes you have to be able to see the whole situation for what it is, not just what your employee says happened. That's the mark of a good manager.

From the original ranter (seems quite accurate too): "You know, I was pretty much over this. For real. Then somebody emailed me a link to the owner of Murky Coffee’s public response. All I’m saying is, if you were wondering where this barista’s attitude came from, wonder no longer. It looks like it’s learned behavior from the top down."

What ever happened to the shit-eating grin as a tool for peace and harmony? What next? A surge and a staged withdrawal from Murky Coffee?

The fact is, if it's store policy not to do something, even if the reason for the policy is insipid, then you really don't have any call for getting pissed at the coffee jerk for following policy.

At least get mad at the person who made the policy.

"Murky Coffee: Telling you what you're allowed to drink, and how you're allowed to feel about it since 2002."

Should the coffee joint have given him the drink as he asked? Probably. Should the customer have been an asshole? most definitely not. Hells bells could he have just ordered a 3 espresso and a cup of ice? Then performed the operation himself?

why do we even have coffee shops? Are there not vending machines?

There are matters that deserve coverage. This is not one of them.

Anything about coffee is worth covering, even nitwits fighting over it.

they a have a programme for people like you you know

Caffeine Addiction Is a Mental Disorder, Doctors Say
George Studeville
for National Geographic Magazine
January 19, 2005

I just read the coverage in the Washington Post, and am thinking the owner of Murky is a bit of a control freak..

"He also said some customers have the audacity to order an espresso over ice, then fill the glass with milk at the dairy bar -- creating their own iced latte, at a significant saving."

"No modifications to the Classic Cappuccino. No questions will be answered about the $5 Hot Chocolate (during the months we offer it). No espresso in a to-go cup. No espresso over ice. These are our policies. We have our reasons, and we're happy to share them."

Dude.

Caffeine Causes Calls To Poison Control
Doctors Point To Energy Drinks, Caffeine Added To Unexpected Products

POSTED: 4:17 pm CDT July 11, 2008

Regardless of whether the barista was speaking about Simmermon's attitude or his impending impending espresso violation, I'm not a fan of lectures from my barista.

Moral of the story? If you're dealing with a customer who's a dick, it's not going to help anything by trying to teach him manners.

@Ceronomus - actually, the document you link talks about the fragility of making coffee over ice right. Although, I think they advocate making it straight over ice.

However, I don't really see why everyone is so damn uppity about this. Murky Coffee is a place run by fanatics. They keep track of the specific region their coffee is coming from. They put way more care into their product than just about any coffee shop I've been to.

If they want to be a bit crazy about how they will or won't serve their coffee, that's OK with me if it's the tradeoff between fantastic coffee and the ordinary swill that we deal with.

Of course, I'm also biased because I've had nothing but pleasant experiences at Murky.

~~~

The real cost of coffee
Updated 01 May 2003, 17.08
Coffee beans
Demand for cheap coffee threatens rhinos, elephants and tigers according to the Wildlife Conservation Society .

"Wednesday, March 09, 2005
On Slavery and Coffee
I came across this excellent though horrifying article in The Economist on the slavery that still exists in the world today. No, I don't mean "economic slavery" or "social slavery" or any other form of unfortunate position that relativistic academics and social activists try to equate with slavery. I mean the real thing - as in bondage, work without any pay. "

Rule #1 there is never a good reason for being a dick over a cup of coffee. If your that high and mighty a consumer, then don't be a coward, turn around and walk out. Don't be a cowardly dick and still give these people money, ruining your day and ruining theirs.

Rule #2 There are two sides to a story and both of them are usually wrong... see any Consumerist post. Never let facts get in the way of making you the hero of a story where you, in a daring act of bravery, told off baristas... Oh gasp what next? Telling the 7-Eleven guy how to make a Slurpee correctly?

Evil Coffee
is the scourge of modern womanhood says
Ezra Franklin Stockley, M.D.
Click here if you haven't read the shocking introduction to this horrific pamplet!
The modern evil of coffee drinking is the root cause of all the terrible woes that threaten the very foundations of all that we hold most dear. Once upon a time, families would come together every day to exchange news and pleasantries over a refreshing cup of tea, or to toast a muffin or two in cook's oven, while the master of the house instructed the female servants in the finer points of oral diction. They would talk to one another about their day at the schoolhouse, the office, and for the ladies of the family, how they had cleaned and tended the house that day. Nowadays however, such stimulating and refined intercourse has all but disappeared from our Great Nation. Instead we have broody young girls skulking in their rooms, drinking coffee behind closed doors.

I don't like the rudeness to the staff. I do like iced coffee.

The thing about iced coffee is, it doesn't ruin the flavor for the next customer. I am a bit of a coffee elitist. I don't frequent coffee shops that sell a lot of flavored-bean coffee. That stuff is very smelly and coffee absorbs odors with all the gusto of that box of baking soda in the back of your fridge.

In fact, my long-standing rule of thumb for selecting coffee shops is this: if the selection of coffees reads like an ice cream parlor flavor list, beat feet! If it reads like the departure destinations at in international airport, stick around and try the brew.

But using ice doesn't contaminate the next customers drink, so even if it is not listed on the menu, to refuse the customer request is a silly pretension.

Rudeness is NOT cool, not kind, nor is arrogance. Stupidity is frustrating though. And some days when you've had to deal with a dozen different kinds of stupidity, and you just want an iced coffee to cool off and soothe your pounding head, this sort of thing could push you over the edge a little bit.

if the selection of coffees reads like an ice cream parlor flavor list, beat feet!

Bars work the same way. There's nothing worse than a martini that tastes like the shaker had Kahlua in it last round.

Angry person = uncool person. That's all anyone needs to know.

Let it die, please. This is absurd.

Barista acts like dick, customer acts like dick, owner acts like dick, threatens dick punching.
/end

BELISLE @19 hit the nail on the head. In my experiences working in customer service (especially tech support for Apple Computer, not coffee, mind you, but you have the same sort of high-end very particular customers. There is a reason pundits throw around "latte-swilling" as undeniable proof of elite-ness, even if it may be demographically untrue) nothing is gained by being a dick to a dick. They obviously believe at Murky that the customer is only right when he/she parrots what they dictate. If they want to be "soup nazis" about their coffee, that is literally their business, but I would not give them any more of my money if they denied me something so simple and easy to fulfill. I don't believe they sell "lecturing about manners" on the menu.

''We have our reasons, and we're happy to share them."

Bend over, grab your ankles, and shout your reasons up...

Sounds like backpedaling to me. Assuming the customer's recall is correct, the barista said "What you are about to do is Not Cool". The customer had already already berated the barista (which was INDEED not cool), so what else could he have been referring to but the supposed coffee armageddon that would have somehow resulted from the combination of espresso and ice?

For the record, my opinion, let me show you it:

Murky Coffee: Pretentious dicks.

Customer: Regular dick.

Now can we all go home?

in the coffee producing country where i live, the traditional method of making coffee is to grind it rough, put it into a fabric "sock" and pour hot water or milk through it. only recently have american style coffee shops started to exist, there has been italian coffee preparation available in restaurants for a long time.

the coffee growers would have no idea what you were talking about if you presented them with an argument about coffee integrity. they would just be totally shocked that anyone pays so much for coffee since they are picking it all by hand for a few dollars a day.

i think anyone, customer or barista, who makes much fuss about coffee needs to cut down.

Brilliant idea: if a store or restaurant doesn't offer a product you want, go somewhere else. Don't yell at the workers. I don't know where people get this idea that "the customer is always right" and that retail/service employees are supposed to be their indentured servants or something.

How about both sides are wrong?

Yeah, the guy was probably a dick. And, yeah, their policy is idiotic. They deserve each other.

I don't mean to cause a tiff, or a spat or a brouhaha, but can we see a little less of the word kerfuffle for while? It's a great word, don't get me wrong. I just don't want us all to get tired of it.

#33 The store does offer what the customer ordered, they have espresso and they have ice and in fact they serve "americanos" which is espresso over ice.

Great. Just great. Start a brouhaha about kerfuffle.

How about fracas?

Maybe a to-do?

I think the most interesting thing about this is the Rashomon aspect. You've got the customer retelling a version on his blog that, per someone who witnessed it (referenced in the original thread), seems to have been largely in the customer's mind.

It's like that time I told off that employee at Starbucks, and that beautiful woman in line behind me whispered in my ear, "You are making me so hot right now!"

Then we made our way to the backseat of her car in the parking lot, and, well, there was an unfortunate incident with two spilled cups of scalding hot coffee...

walla-walla?

the really bizarre thing about all this is the fact that the coffee shop refuses to serve a drink that is an italian tradition.. maybe over in the US you dont have too many actual italian cafes but here in Melbourne they are everywhere. Want a great iced coffee ? Walk into any cafe here and order a caffe freddo. you'll get a shot of espresso, a glass of ice and a small jug of milk. Any cafe that has some kind of idiot policy about no espresso over ice clearly has no clue about good italian coffee & should be avoided at all costs..

here's something even more bizarre about this incident:

from Wash Post:

"Murky Coffee, according to the tax office, owes more than $427,000 in sales and franchise taxes. A lien filed against the business shows that Cho paid sales tax to the government in only three of the 24 months from November 2004 to October 2006. Officials with the tax office said Cho missed payments in 2007 and 2008 as well."

yikes!

Beggars CAN be choosy....

For a single, owner-run store that plays up staff involvement to hide behind "policy" is the purest bullshit, and I'm amazed at the number of people here and elsewhere who have swallowed it.

The people at Murky are legally entitled to do as they please for any reason, or no reason at all. But hiding their reasoning in a black box called "policy" doesn't absolve them of responsibility for their actions. It especially doesn't entitle them to act in an arbitrary, capricious, or condescending manner and then get treated like they're being friendly and sensible.

Their expectation that they could is what set off Jeff Simmermon, the iced-espresso buyer. At least he could admit in retrospect that he behaved poorly, but Murky's Nick Cho seems determined that he'll learn exactly nothing from this.

Until this important issue is settled once and for all, I want to hear nothing (you hear me? NOTHING) about Iraq, the credit crisis, global warming, nuclear proliferation or the rising price of rice OR oil. Keep it to yourself. I am trying to concentrate on THIS.

And while you are at it, get in the kitchen and make me an espresso.

jeez,you tell someone they can't have ice in their drink and now your tax records are published world wide.....hmmmmm....I have a use for this power......

What is needed is a glamorous musical-style production about a coffee shop where people get over themselves and stop being miserable asshats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUTEd3OmIK0

thank the gods!!
Britney Spears reaches custody agreement with ex-husband
Singer will get increased access to her sons

* Jul 19, 2008

There have to be some colorful, out-of-date, senseless synonyms for kerfuffle. How about dust-up in the interim?

Sounds like they've had a history with customers who order "iced espresso" and then add huge amounts of (free) milk, effectively creating an iced latte on the cheap. They don't want to ration the milk, but they don't want people to rip them off, either, and this is their current solution.

That certainly explains the "what you're about to do is not cool" reaction much better than assuming the barista really hates iced espresso.

The Other Matt #42:

You might be interested in this excellent article on the history of coffee in NZ & Oz. Basically, the modern espresso machine, not mass produced until after WW2, came to Australasia with the Italian migrants post the war. By then, in America, the normal Italian coffee had been established as the brewed/filter sort; the espresso took a lot longer to gain acceptance.

I had heard that there were accounts of American visitors to Sydney during the Olympics who complained of being unable to buy a decent coffee - they were not used to the stuff produced by espresso machines. Which is also apparently why Starbucks took off; you could get decent* coffee there.

*For given values of 'decent'. Disclaimer: I'm repeating hearsay so could be completely wrong about some or all of the above.

I still like rumpus

hurly burly hugger mugger to-do?

I call shenanigans on this entire "ghetto latte" customer self service milk abuse argument. I seriously doubt people are conniving to save money by getting an espresso and adding their own milk. Personally I like more milk and or cream than coffee shops ever include in my drinks and I always have to ask for it to be redone or for the cup to come 2 inches short so I can add the amount I like. I definitely think the entire concept of calling the drink a "ghetto latte" is proof positive that these folks re just being elitist. They also like to compare themselves to sommeliers which is just way over the top.

MArtha @ 43, he's also getting sued by his landlord for not paying his rent for several months.

For someone who knows so much about running a business, you'd think he'd know he needs to pay his taxes AND his rent.

I don't see how a business that's in that kind of trouble (because if there's someone you don't want on your back, it's the tax man) would turn away any business. Customer wants his espresso over ice? Sure thing, that'll be an extra $0.75 to cover cup and ice. Ghetto lattes are a problem? Move the milk to the counter or switch to small packages that can easily be dispensed by the staff. You go out of your way to make as many sales as you can, and screw your coffee snobbery.

The one thing not to do is to come off like the Coffee Nazi and discourage any customers from wanting to come into your store. Sure plenty of people will cheer him on for sticking it to crazy caffeine starved yuppie (who knows how many will actually go buy his coffee though), but I suspect that are some folks who won't want to bother with his store for fear of feeling like idiots if they offend his delicate coffee sensibilities. Better to suck it up and go to Starbucks where they can get their drink however they want it without it turning into an internet brouhaha.

and I think we better draw the line here. What next? His medical records?

I just feel that there's got to be an expression like Circassian two-step or Walla Walla wienie roast.

ah! an "Italian Wedding"!

What about a good old ballyhoo?

Pertinent rundown:

Customer: "I want that one"

Barista: "I don't like it"

Internets: "Wha' a kerfuffle"

foofaraw perhaps?

Oh, I love to see this spread far and wide. While I've got an appreciation for dedication to quality, I have a bigger appreciation for Not Being a Douchebag. So that puts Nick Cho and his tax cheating ass squarely on the wrong side of me. If there's such thing as justice, his Arlington location (Douchebaggery HQ) will get shut down and sold off to pay his DC taxes. I live all of three blocks away, and would gladly welcome back the crappy old junk store that used to occupy that location.

Is foofaraw a word? Cuz that would be the winner. We could officially deprecate kerfuffle, which by the way, has been getting on my nerves, too.

foo·fa·raw (ff-rô)
n.
1. Excessive or flashy ornamentation.
2. A fuss over a trifling matter.

1933 N.Y. Times Bk. Rev. 26 Mar. 7/1 A kinship born..of a common humor, and a common liking for the kind of theatrical display which Andy contemptuously calls ‘foofaraw’.

1935 N.Y. Times 5 Aug. 14/5 This august assemblage of the powers of earth, with its pomp and circumstance, its foofaraw and medicine-making.

1954 Time 1 Mar. 88/2 The Vatican's recent decision..set off a foofaraw of petion-drafting [read petition-drafting], letter-signing, and complaining.

1989 G. ANDERSON in New Q. Mag. Spring 34 The food isn't what you'd think, in spite of all the foofara about Greek cooking.

2004 Vanity Fair Nov. 316/1, I have no idea how the later-summer foofaraw caused by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth played out.

Pogo. Pogo used it, it's a word.

Word.

I always thought a kerfuffle was a type of German desert, sort of like a soufflé, heavy on the chocolate, best served warm.

If that were the definition, we'd be asking for more.

~~~

flap-doodle?

Hullabaloo.

No, no, no. A kerfuffle is a trifle served with German cherry brandy poured over it.

Violalabloo?

kirsch kerfuffle?

kirschfuffle?

Shanghai shivaree?

Scottish cocktail party?

Wrong thread, 404. This is the murkabaloo thread. Or perhaps murkdoodle.

hey! what's all the hubbub, bub?

And I have a friend who keeps getting confused and calling 'auflauf', which is a food item, 'einlauf', which is an enema.

antinous, which was he trying to get?

kerfuffleupagus

could be dangerous in some restaurants

'cuz either sounds just yummy!

einlauf = murkdoodle ?

kerfuffleupagus FTW!

big bird would be proud :)

clem

Oooh, I knew it... all I had to do is throw in one tiny comment about kerfuffle and get all these great words in exchange. You guys rock. Ark, foofaraw is great, I'd heard it before but it could see wider use, IMO. Also digging fracas, hubbub, dust-up, ballyhoo and rumpus. Flapdoodle also rocks, but I've always though of it more as meaning nonsense or crapola (that's what I learned from Wooster/Wodehouse anyway).

mitt ein tuben

Scottish cocktail party

I will definitely use that until Hassan-i-Sabbah forces me to stop. My name is Campbell, so I should be able to get away with it.

Until some MacDonald shows up and brings up Glencoe.

Einlauf more equals doodlemurk.

Go to Java Shack instead. It's about 5 blocks east.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/13/AR2008071301463.html

i would've thought that einlauf would clear up the doodlemurk.

Until some MacDonald shows up and brings up Glencoe.

What if they bring up Glen Campbell?

A storm in a coffee place might be a "garboil."

Definition:
\Gar"boil\, n. [OF. garbouil; cf. Sp. garbullo, It.
garbuglio; of uncertain origin; the last part is perh. fr. L.
bullire to boil, E. boil.]
Tumult; disturbance; disorder. [Obs.] --Shak.

imbroglio?

imbrewglio?

and once discovering the happiest thread in the world, they all lived happily ever after...

This is all just a tempest in a teapot.

mmmmmm, tea.

Tell me it's not too late for branglement.

It's never too late for new language.

Then how about "Spurchumigus"?

Branglement is a word, you know. It's a word that forces one to sound like Tom Hanks when pronouncing it. That's why no one uses it anymore.

I take a day off of BB to host a party and THIS is what you all get up to?

Such a hurly burly over nothing.

Kerfuffleupagus gets my vote. I'm going to repeat it to myself for a while now...

Nice one Jake, I'm a foofaraw man m'self :)

Nick Cho, FTW!

Murky's policy is infuriating, as is the owner's response. To paraphrase him: there are things that demand having a policy (like paying your taxes, so your Eastern Market store doesn't get shut down). Refusing to put your mediocre coffee on ice is not one of them.

Nick Cho \Nik"Choh\n.
an amusing quarrel brought about by churlish behavior on the part of all parties involved.

NO COFFEE FOR YOU! Come back, one year.

I sincerely hope Nick Cho wears a beret.

If I were selling coffee and a potential loyal
customer wanted it with ice, I'd let him have
it with ice. Why not?

If I were in this guy's place and were refused
iced espresso, I would have ordered the espresso,
gone back and asked for a glass of ice, poured
the espresso in the ice, and smirked.

Two things here everyone should know about retail:

1) If you don't get what you want or don't like the service of a place, just leave. Yeah, you might suffer the stink-eye (at least) from a server/proprietor, but in 10 minutes it's all over and nobody cares. Especially when it comes to coffee shops. I don't care where in the U.S. you are, there is always choice in coffee shops. So be an active consumer.

2) In the world of retail, if you're under the age of 50 and speak out against a customer, you'll suffer. People don't like young owners sassing back. But post-50? You can be a 100% opinionated jerk and people find it charming! Check out any "famous" old establishment and that's always the case. Here in NYC there are more than a few "wonderful" old timey places with cantankerous coots and people love it! Even if the food/product is mediocre.

Also, while I haven't had coffee in over 8 years, I find iced coffee fiends to be some of the most obnoxious folks around. Somehow the idea that you're having something 1% better than a bottle of cola goes to the heads of iced coffee folks.

#52 soon lee

thanks for that link! i didnt know that connection between the timing of the birth of the espresso machine & the italian migration to melbourne.. interesting stuff!! (ok, yes, i am a coffee nerd, guilty as charged)

i just got back from my first trip to europe actually (for sonar music festival in barcelona), was interesting to observe a bit of euro coffee culture.. a latte in barca is a caffe con leche (coffee with milk), but they have a great tiny latte number called a caffe cortado (a "cut" coffee)
..but generally they dont seem to have a really strong coffee culture, they prefer to drink beer (it was summer tho i guess).. in paris the closest they have to that is a cafe noisette (which is stronger, more like a macciato).

JACK,

Thanks for articulating this overlooked curiosity; it's something we've all noticed but maybe never mention. You're the first I've heard state it. A surly, nasty-tempered old merchant in my town was beloved in spite of his being insulting. His sons finally dragged him off the premises, snapping and anarling, at the age of ninety and into retirement; he was/is now giving his nurses hell. Of course he has a multitude of generationally stacked grandchilren, upon which he predictably dotes. I guess that's part of a lovable old fart's m.o. This is also true, I suspect, of a type of high school varsity coach, who is adored by his players to the degree that he reviles them.

Note that this nick guy is apparently also not a big fan of paying his taxes. All in all, it doesn't sound like a very good business, and it's certainly the antithesis of what a coffeeshop should be, i.e. a place to kick it.