Not a big surprise that the judge wants all of her email, including those Yahoo accounts.

Well, maybe Palin's AG (yet another former Wasilla HS classmate) is surprised.

guilty,guilty,guilty

So yahoo, Yahoo!

Am I the only one who thinks that Yahoo account was a decoy?

As soon as the Republicans wanted it to be released they changed the password clue to something really simple... I think it was "where did you meet your husband?"

I thought I read that the messages only went back to April. As soon as it was clear this could be a problem for her politically it seems like they could have gotten rid of the old accounts and set this one up to make people think that she didn't discuss anything too personal off the record.

I won't be too surprised if I turn on the tv news within the next couple of days and see a news conference with McCain saying that he's dropping Palin from the ticket. I have to admit that I would have a hard time hiding my schadenfreude should such a thing happen.

Am I the only one who thinks that Yahoo account was a decoy?

I'm starting to wonder if Senator McCain is a closet Democrat and if he picked Governor Palin as a sure bet to throw the election.

is Palin the decoy? What rovian horror is in the cellar?

The kind of people who are voting for McCain/Palin are going to be more excited than ever to vote for her now that she is the victim of this liberal kangaroo court smear campaign.

Congratulations, Sarah

You are now a real republican with a legal judgment against you.

I wonder if anybody has a list of all the republicans that have been charged with crimes over the last 8 years?

I would be wearing my schadenfreude on my sleeve.

And not for Palin. She is who she is. It's not her fault that she was picked as the VP canidate.

No, I would be thrilled that the Republican party's publicity stunt backfired on them. By selecting Palin as McCains' VP running mate they have cheapened our nation's political discourse and reduced America's political process to a Burger King commercial.

They should be ashamed for selling out our country. The ends should never justify the means.

The kind of people who are voting for McCain/Palin are going to be more excited than ever to vote for her now that she is the victim of this liberal kangaroo court smear campaign.

You forgot 'leftist'. If you're considering a career in astroturfing, don't give up your day job.

heh,ole Matt Drudgie's still trying to ignore this.

#Antinuous that mighta been ultradry humor, though I'm not the best judge.

An assistant attorney general told the court that the governor was no longer using here private e-mail accounts to conduct state business

I would like the court to note that I no longer murder people with machetes, so you can just drop that pesky 11-point indictment, m'kay?

hyperdry m'dear,hyperdry

#Antinuous that mighta been ultradry humor, though I'm not the best judge.

Was there any vermouth in my comment?

Unfurtunatly, the troll @#8 is probably right.

Like my father's martinis, he usually just opened the vermouth and waved the bottle around somewhere in the vicinity of the vodka.

yass, they do let anyone in here these days....

that kid is my hero

Mark's trollin'?

And watering his astroturf?

On a Friday night?

I think I'll go be sad somewhere after I'm done laughing at McCain's angry face.

I'm a bit torn. I loathe her, but I almost can't help feeling a bit like the media is out to get her. Situations are almost always vastly more complicated than the media makes them out to be. (saying this as a registered democrat and hippie liberal btw).

I am curious about the real truth beneath all of this. Which is something we are never likely to know.

So fucking what? Where's the damage ... where's the secret stuff in the Yahoo mail? Cheney probably uses a Yahoo or Hotmail account to tell his investor buddies what's happening next so they can clean up and repay him.

Your local cops are using Yahoo for business, too. Keep an eye on who's at library computers (not in uniform).
--Mike

@22:

Hey, if she broke the law, she broke the law. Considering the report was released by a unanimous vote of a legislative council with 10 Republicans and 4 Democrats all voting yes, I'll take a certain amount of trust in that process.

If you're worried about the media, you can also read the report for yourself. It's on PDF at various websites.

I wrote "liberal kangaroo court smear campaign."

And here's why: only 10 of the 14 people on the commission were Republicans. The rest were Democrats. That's one heck of a liberal bias, my friends.

Gather yourself back up, if the media was out to get her they'd have her.

#24 fair point there.

We'll see how this plays out, I suppose.

damn commie liberal bastards, I can see them now, getting all worked up reading Chomsky and then heading out to rape good,honest,god-fearin moose slayers!

I almost can't help feeling a bit like the media is out to get her.

They go after everybody. They go after Obama, McCain, Biden, Shia LaBeouf, aspiring Miss North Carolinas, everybody. As far as the political process goes, that's a part of the filter to keep (obvious) assholes out of higher office. Being Queen of the Harpies is not a desirable trait in a President. Well, to me, anyway. The press just helps me find out one way or the other, sniffing around like the rats in a maze that they are.

I think a major issue that's being ignored here is how smoking hot David Kernell is.

@#25 Mark Frauenfelder that's one helluva spread, wow. thanks for the post.

damn commie liberal bastards, I can see them now, getting all worked up reading Chomsky and then heading out to rape good,honest,god-fearin moose slayers!

I almost can't help feeling a bit like the media is out to get her.

Being Republican, as it turns out, is not a shield against misogyny.

I think a major issue that's being ignored here is how smoking hot David Kernell is.

He looks like he's 12!

tut tut Sister, leave the gametes alone now, t'is unseemly.

#4 posted by ssll , October 10, 2008 6:25 PM

Am I the only one who thinks that Yahoo account was a decoy?

Really? REALLY??? She can't speak in full sentences do you think she is smart enough for that ploy simple as it might have been???

Please fing the time to watch Bill Moyers
, this is the kind of hate filled crap many of Palin's supporters are listening to.

PWNED!

I'm concerned that the real misdirection is the courts exerting authority over her email accounts.

I can't imagine another scenario in which BoingBoing readers would instinctively feel pleased by this intrusion. And I include myself because my first reaction was along the lines of #3 yahoo, Yahoo.

But in a couple of months when this happens to someone else and they point to 'Palingate' it might be too late.

"The kind of people who are voting for McCain/Palin are going to be more excited than ever to vote for her now that she is the victim of this liberal kangaroo court smear campaign"

what difference does it make how excited they are when they go to the polls? it's not like any 'reason' or 'evidence' would change their minds.

Ds and Rs aren't parties - they're sports teams. base level supporters don't look at issues - it's all about identity and narcissism.

I can't imagine another scenario in which BoingBoing readers would instinctively feel pleased by this intrusion.

The only e-mails that are affected are those involving government business. How is that an intrusion?

tut tut Sister, leave the gametes alone now, t'is unseemly.

Jack: Nonsense, you've never looked better. A youthful companion is the ultimate status accessory.
Liz: Well, maybe you can pull that off. You're a man; it's different for women.
Jack: That is so sexist of you. To that clueless boy over there you're a very powerful woman; technically you're a catch. You've got money, status, naturally thick hair, a decent set. Why are you so against having fun in your life?

I can't imagine another scenario in which BoingBoing readers would instinctively feel pleased by this intrusion. And I include myself because my first reaction was along the lines of #3 yahoo, Yahoo.

As far as cracker/hacker culture goes, she should have used more secure email. She probably should have used GnuPG. ;) The hackers were just pointing out the security holes in the email system she was using. :p

We all cheered the MediaDefender emails being leaked, right?

Now if the CIA / NSA / MI6 / FSB / GRU / Mossad is using vulnerabilities in software to crack databases of "people of interest", I suppose turnabout is fair play. As for the AT&T debacle, 95% of that blame lay with AT&T for collaborating.

Jack: He's hot, poor, and eager to please. Buy him a few gifts, never give him your home phone number, and if you set a curfew, stick to it.

@22:

Hey, if she broke the law, she broke the law. Considering the report was released by a unanimous vote of a legislative council with 10 Republicans and 4 Democrats all voting yes, I'll take a certain amount of trust in that process.

Finding Number Two

I find that, although Walt Monegan's refusal to fire Trooper Michael Wooten was not the sole reason he was fired by Governor Sarah Palin, it was likely a contributing factor to his termination as Commissioner of Public Safety. In spite of that, Governor Palin's firing of Commissioner Monegan was a proper and lawful exercise of her constitutional and statutory authority to hire and fire executive branch department heads.

Yeah, yeah. I'm totally outraged she may have used a Yahoo email account for official business, even though the hacker didn't find anything. Really. Up there with Watergate.

Every once in a while, I try experimenting with having a political opinion completely 180 from my own. Pro-life, Republican, heteronormative, Dominionist Christian, what have you. It improves me as a writer, and gives me the bends similar to LSD. I don't keep the opinion, mind you. I just exercise what it would be like to believe that Sarah Palin was actually qualified to be Vice President, that the Republican party gives a shit about poor working class people, that Obama was a secret Muslim, that somehow being a Muslim disqualifies you from being a human or even a President, that white American people are superior to everyone else on the planet, and that those fucking Mexicans want my job.

And then I realize that it's time wasted; that there are probably not enough people truly of that persuasion who would ever entertain the idea that maybe they're wrong, or even experimentally believing that possibly they've been terribly lied to, that they're horribly scared and unable to express it for fear of seeming weak in the world's eyes, that maybe, just maybe, Obama would simply do a better job if they gave him a chance, that Mexicans have rights too, that English is spoken better in other countries and by non-native speakers, that speaking English doesn't make one superior, that we've been awfully gluttonous and irresponsible as a society for far too long, etc.

This is obviously not good, but on my scale of politician's misdeeds it's about a 1: a demerit, not fatal. There's a certain noise-level of minor misdeeds with all politicians. If this is disqualification level, then we wouldn't have any candidates this year.

And it's strange to call it "personal gain" to want to fire a state employee with his record. Tazered a kid, drank while driving his patrol car, etc. He threatened to kill his father-in-law, heaven's sake. That's the governor's father and Palin's father. (And for all that he got a five-day suspension? Wow, powerful union he's got.) No wonder Palin targeted this guy. I would have. Wouldn't you?

And yes, if Palin were a Democrat or a Green or whatever, I'd feel the same way. When a state employee screws up repeatedly and threatens to kill people, I want his ass fired. If he threatens members of the governor's family and the governor tries to fire his ass, I totally understand if it got a little personal. If they went a little too far, well, OK, one demerit. But if anyone wants to be a purist about ethical lapses, then I just ask that Biden (serial plagiarist) and Obama (Rezko-assisted house purchase, etc.) be held to equivalent standards.

IBDENSE@9: Here you go. A comprehansive list of Republican Criminals. Haven't found one for the Dems, but it's got to be a hell of a lot shorter.

"I can't imagine another scenario in which BoingBoing readers would instinctively feel pleased by this intrusion."

Really? I don't think anyone has issue with Palin having personal eMail accounts: the problem here is that she was, allegedly, using non-governmental accounts to conduct government business with the express reason being to avoid having these conversations being open to investigation.

If I work for company x, and they tell me to conduct all business eMail exchanges using my x.com eMail account, and I don't, I'm certainly open to being fired and maybe even sued. The Palin case is much worse, potentially, as she wasn't just breaking company policy, but law.

Comprehansive = comprehensive + hansom. Yeah, that's what I meant to say...

@Glossolalia Black

But if you could stay in character long enough to push the Stephen Colbert / Onion News Network routine to its logical conclusion... to out-O'Reilly O'Reilly... I'd love to see that experiment play out:

Hell, we should pre-emptively nuke Iran and North Korea now -- from orbit. That'll show the world who the only superpower really is. Then we'll round up all the illegal immigrants into camps and put them to work in chain gangs rebuilding our roads and bridges. Administration of these work camps should be outsourced by FEMA to the most lucratively bribing companies in the prison-industrial complex, with Blackwater contracted as the guards. Then we'll eliminate all taxes, except on individual income, and pay for massive graft and never-ending wars of "liberation" on deficit -- because it doesn't matter since "we owe it to ourselves anyway". Healthcare will henceforth be managed by the Umbrella Corporation, including mandatory vaccination / bio-tagging for school admissions -- for your own protection. Expanded G.I. education benefits will drive up tuition inflation so that unless you're extremely rich, affording a college education will depend on military service -- think of it as your patriotic duty. Of course, everyone will first affirm their patriotism by taking a documented loyalty oath; failure to do so will register you as an enemy combatant and removed for "processing" (the specifics of with are kept secret for national security).

snicker,yep , drudge report STILL ain't covering this (snork!)

ZUZU@51: Keep going. You've got a long way to go to get to Phillip K. Dick land, where the McCain-Palin mob really runs wild (and you can win the big big money!)

What about us commie faggot drug-addict aborted fetus loving eco-feminazi tree-hugging godless secular humanists? Whatchoo got fer us? We were registering dead homeless people to support our islamo-nucular terror cells in socialist Canada while you weren't paying attention...

Great post, Glossolalia Black. I don't go as far as you do, but I do try my best to stretch my belief system enough to see things from the other angles as much as I can. Which has made me realize that ultimately either everyone is right, everyone is wrong, or everyone is insane. Or all of the above (my conclusion, generally).

What I really hope is that we learn something every time we go through this, but I'm not sure we do. Because every single goddamn time our behavior as human beings, including my own, shocks me, even though it's always exactly the same, and always has been. It's weird!

PAPAYASF: What the hell are you drinking? Palin violated a state ethics statute. Within days of taking office she and her husband started working to fire Wooten. When that didn't work she fired Walt Monegan, the Commissioner for Public Safety, whom they had unsuccessfully pressured to fire Wooten. Her husband, also called the Wasilla police chief to make sure Wooten would not be hired there if he were succesfully fired.

Are you seriously going to equate this criminal violation with plagiarism and a questionable loan which Obama has admitted to and deeply regrets. Who do you work for?

Papayasf @47, I wouldn't argue too hard over the point you raised (wanting to have the trooper fired), and it would be easy to forgive calling the public safety commissioner in to make your case and exert your clout. But to fire him after that, when he was really damned either way (would the trooper have sued if he had been fired? It would have been arguably illegal to fire him), and with a family grudge involved, speaks volumes about her unfitness to lead, at least to me.

EUSTACE: He's got no arguement, he's just repeating the party line, for heaven's sake. I've been sitting here, insomnia sucks, reading 236 pages of report, the investigation into Wooten was long closed, he was punished. They even tried to get Wooten for hunting out of season, but when they found out Palin's father would also be prosecuted, because he helped Wooten butcher the moose, they gave up.

Also, if he had threatened Palin or her family why didn't they request protection, instead of cutting back protedtion?

Just hit yourself in the head with a brick until you see stars and stripes. That should do the trick.

This was not about protecting anyone; she is being accused of using her office to destroy Wooten's career.

An important clarification. You state that Palin "unlawfully abused her authority by firing the state’s public safety commissioner."

But in fact, the investigation found that Palin breached her legal, ethical duty in the pressure she exerted to get Trooper Wooten fired (Finding 1). The firing of Monegan, while maybe partly motivated by his refusal to fire Wooten, was actually lawful (Finding 2).

Just think. McCain could have picked Liebermann, beaten the religious wing-nuts down on the convention floor in front of the whole country instead of having Guliani demonstrate why he only got one delegate, and changed the dynamics of the race. Liebermann may support him on Iraq but he is hard core social liberal and elevated Lindsey Graham more (who kept pushing him to pick Liebermann and would be a Democrat if he wasn't from South Carolina) and possibly be winning or even at least. Palin would be a nothing except another corrupt, Alaskan governor that no one cares about. Oh well. Audacity is for the winners.

As his poll numbers drop like a rock, I have to wonder if McCain isn't hoping for this to blow up. What a perfect excuse to drop her from the ticket without losing face! A switch to Lieberman might at least improve his numbers in Florida.

Maybe the council *was* biased by having 10 Republicans, just not in the way one might expect. The campaign was trying to keep a lid on this, but perhaps they're not trying quite so hard now.

@46 Glossolaliablack-- The distinction here is easy. You assume that the state of being human is enough to give you common cause with other humans. If you picked something else as your criterion for "sameness", whether that was race or culture or class or religion (or all of the above) you'd likely view others as something of a threat and the rest follows naturally.

The choice is fairly arbitrary. You might include all people, PETA includes all animals, the KKK excludes quite a lot of people, extreme political groups exclude their opponents, etc, etc.

FoetusNail, Thanks for that Bill Moyers link @ 37.

Throwing the election - yep, who'd want to be a Republican prez in the aftermath of W? You'd live a life of hassle.

there is a real possibility that those who created the disaster blooming today will be hauled up for trial by the new government. The scope of it banishes previous understandings about non-prosecution mutual courtesy.

@6 - Antinous: I think you're the only other person I've seen who has said that. I've been saying it since they showed the picks for VP. The Republicans are not intending to win this election. They are doing everything they can to make McCain/Palin unpalatable. Like they WANT to lose. A landslide.

Hmm... and here Bush just gave the POTUS a whole whack of powers he is too unpopular to use. But a president like Obama? With the love of "the people" behind him? Hmmmmmmmm....

if the Cheney gang murders Obama in the next few weeks, who wins?

@#48, PHIKIS: Thanks for the Republican Criminal list, but it seems a bit out of date (2005). Does anyone know of a more current/updated list? Googling around finds this one (http://www.republicanoffenders.com/), but that seems almost too granular (hundreds and hundreds...).

@ #68 Takuan

there is a real possibility that those who created the disaster blooming today will be hauled up for trial by the new government. The scope of it banishes previous understandings about non-prosecution mutual courtesy.

I would find that interesting. The whole country, minus myself and a couple of other people, on trial. I mean, if we're going to go after those who caused this mess, that is, instead of a few big-time crooks at the top.

No wonder Palin targeted this guy. I would have. Wouldn't you?

Let's assume that all the allegations were true (that's not a given, the only witnesses are Palin family members and all of the allegations surfaced during the divorce cause): no, I wouldn't have done so, and if you'd have you should be ashamed.

What I would've done, had I been the vaunted "popular governor with 80% approval rate" and a strong majority in the House, would've been pushing for legislation to ensure that no abusive cop could ever do the thing Wooten allegedly did, escape punishment and keep his job. But evidently Palin didn't give a fuck about the other abusive cops' families, she cared just for HER family and HER problems.

As to the notion that the Republicans would be intentionally throwing this election...if I put on my conspiracy hat, I can almost see it.

1) The economy stinks. Whomever is elected is going to inherit a really bad one, and it's still heading south at a rapid pace.

2) The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are not going away anytime soon.

3) With a Democratic majority in the House and Senate, AND a Democrat president, AND the chance to stack a few more Democrats onto the Supreme Court, potentially, if everything still pretty much sucks in four to eight years, AND we have 70% income tax rate for the majority of Americans who have jobs, the Republicans can come back and look like heroes instead of skunks.

However, I don't think people work like that.

First, all politicians are supremely full of themselves. They don't sacrifice their own ambitions for the good of the party or the country, despite what they say. Maybe a few of the third-party candidates, but they don't win, so it doesn't matter.

Second, nobody thinks about politics like a war - lose the battle intentionally to win the war. It might be smart, but since each 'battle' results in a four-year window before the next 'battle' can be fought, a person has only about 3 to 4 battles available to them in their own lifetimes - for McCain, for example, it's now or never. Again, people don't tend to think about long-term strategies that don't have themselves in them.

Third, the Republicans are deeply divided. You can't have a conspiracy unless everyone goes along with the game plan.

So as much as it may look like it, I have to doubt that it's an intentional plan to lose the election. They are just sucking out loud right now, that's all.

Like the Chicago Cubs. Do you think THEY choke at the end of every season on purpose?

@ #73 Willie McBride

Let's assume that all the allegations were true (that's not a given, the only witnesses are Palin family members and all of the allegations surfaced during the divorce cause): no, I wouldn't have done so, and if you'd have you should be ashamed.

If we assume, as you said, that the allegations were true, if I had been in her situation, I'd have done the same, but not with the sneakiness. I'd have said in public - I want this guy gone. Fire him. Anybody who refused to do so would get the ax too, and no bones about it. Right out loud and in public. Let the chips fall where they may.

Here's a slight correction. My previous comment stated, Wooten had taken a moose out of season, that was incorrect.

Todd Palin, Gov. Palin's husband, was accusing Wooten of taking a moose without a permit. Commissioner Monegan told T. Palin that if they wanted to charge Wooten then others would possibly be charged as well. This would include Molly, Gov. Palin's sister, who was with her husband (Wooten) at the time he shot the moose, the permit was Molly's. This could also include Gov. Palin's father. After shooting the moose, it was dragged to her father's place, where it was butchered by Gov. Palin's father.

Upon learning their accusations might backfire, resulting in charges against both the Governor's sister and father, they dropped that idea like a hot rock.

The basic series of events goes something like this: Palin is elected governor, she appoints Monegan Commissioner of Public Safety, stating his exemplary professionalism. They also make the Wasilla Chief of Police Monegan's Deputy. Then almost immediately after taking office they began pressuring Monegan to reopen a closed investigation. When Monegan tells them there is nothing new in their allegations (they gave Monegan a file possibly created by a P.I. and pictures of the dead moose) and he can not reopen the investigation, meaning Wooten will not be fired, the Governor then fires Monegan for insurbordination, though by law, she need not state a reason.

Also, during this time period, Todd Palin calls the Wasilla Chief of Police, who has two job openings, to tell him Wooten is a bad guy who should not be a trooper and should not be considered for a position with the Wasilla P.D. The conclusion one could draw from this is the Palin's believed Monegan would fire Wooten for them and they were going to make sure he could not find work in Wasilla.

Lastly, the report is 263 pages long, not 236.

My opinion, is this shows poor judgment on their part. Everything would have been OK, if the Governor had never called Monegan. Todd Palin, as a concerned citizen, was within his rights to make allegations against Wooten. When this didn't produce the desired results, the Governor should have just fired Monegan without comment, as allowed by State law. However, she made a amateur's mistake and called Monegan personally, resulting in the ethics violation described in the report.

People like myself that support McCain/Palin and have watched/read the news and are at least a teeny bit familiar with politics over the last 20-30 years, only support them because they claim to support our political agenda. McCain wasn't even in the top five list of who I wanted and Palin wouldn't be in the top 100.

I don't care a bit that a panel found that Palin abused power, other than it being one more thing to show that McCain's people did a horrible job in their search for his VP. I'm guessing they just went through a photo album of US Republican women and picked the cutest one.

At best, Gov. Palin's abuse of power is brought to court and justice is served. At worst, Gov. Palin gives another "Checkers Speech" and the nation promptly forgets the entire matter.

@#2 Takuan,

You're darn tootin' correct!
Amen! (so to speak)

What happened to voting for the good of the country ?

Wouldn't you rather elect some competent and honest politicians (find them, draft them whatever but do something: they exist), who may stray from your political agenda form time to time, than incompetent, egotistical fools like Cheney and Co who ran the best country in the World right into the ground and, for good measure, screwed every true conservative idealist that was left ?

J.

Your statement

“a legislative panel investigating vice-presidential Sarah Palin has issued a report finding the governor unlawfully abused her authority by firing the state’s public safety commissioner”

is incorrect. The panel found, quoting directly from their report

“Governor Palin's firing of Commissioner Monegan was a proper and lawful exercise of her constitutional and statutory authority to hire and fire executive branch department heads”

t's hrd t b rlty-bsd whn y chs t lv n n ch chmbr.

Tom be a little more honest, you don't have a political agenda, you have a social agenda of intolerance and bigotry. This agenda violates every thing this country aspires to be, unless of course you are intolerant and bigoted.

What you are really saying, is you would vote for anyone that keeps the GLBT citizens in their place, ignorance and prayer in our public schools, and promises to criminalize abortion.

#78: What aspects of their agenda do you support?

@ FoetusNail,

"Tom be a little more honest, you don't have a political agenda, you have a social agenda of intolerance and bigotry."
I'm not intolerant or bigoted. I have no animosity towards those you think I may have such an attitude. I'm not going to be baited into naming any particular group or why I believe in the Republican stance on the issues that concern such groups - you can go to the RNC web site for that.

"This agenda violates every thing this country aspires to be." That's your personal opinion.

"What you are really saying, is you would vote for anyone that keeps the GLBT citizens in their place, ignorance and prayer in our public schools, and promises to criminalize abortion."
That's not what I'm saying at all. The GLBT citizens don't bother me a bit, as long as it isn't shoved in my face. As far as gay marriage laws are concerned, I believe that's a different issue than being bigoted or intolerant.

I don't believe any religion, for or against, should be taught in our public schools. I don't believe that the big bang theory is against my religion. I believe Darwin's theory of evolution should be taught in public schools, but as only a theory. If a parent wants their children to learn otherwise, they should either teach them at home or send them to a school based on their religion.

Abortion is the largest issue I have with voting Democrat and that's all I have to say about that.

the basic right of person of half of humanity. Not negotiable.

UUBUNTU@71: You are correct. I saw the link for 2008 on the site, but that goes to other blog entries, not a continuation of the Republican Criminal list, as I at first thought. I used to have an email list that was sent around with the highlights, which I updated at the time and sent on its way, but can't seem to find right now. I agree the shear numbers are daunting.

WIGWAM: Why do you continue to use the "This is what I would do if in office" line of reasoning? You are not the yardstick of decent behavior in this country. Since it's always easier to say such things from the sidelines than when in the hot seat, it makes you sound like a blow-hard, and proves nothing.

It must be hard to be a conservative right now; to continue to try to excuse away all the unethical and immoral acts that have been perpetrated on the American people in the past 8 years as "business as usual" while McCain tries to distance himself from his party with outright lies of how "mavricky" he has been. The sad thing is that most conservatives have been so conditioned into unquestioning bias as to believe:
Muslim = Bad terrorist person.
Liberal = Evil.
Socialist = Evil and unacceptable, unless it is bailing out Wall St. fat cats.
Obama = Muslim sounding name, therefore evil terrorist person.

But after 8 years of a complete sham of a government, the smell of decay is starting to seep past the perfume. If the corpse sits on the slab for much longer, it will be past the point of possible revival.

That is not my opinion, that is the opinion of those who wrote all men are created equal. The RNC agenda you keep referring to is exactly what I referenced.

BTW, the only way to reduce or stop abortions is to provide open and honest sex education to our children, and stop limiting access to birth control and the morning after pill. We are all anti-abortion, some of us are just realistic enough, meaning we do not let our religious beliefs cloud our judgment, to understand making abortion illegal will never accomplish our shared goal, anymore than making drugs illegal has stopped drug use. The rest of us believe in the implicit right to privacy that is the foundation of Roe v. Wade.

The abortion issue is just one more way that the immoral minority wish to impose their religious beliefs on the rest of us. You can tell they are full of poop, because at the same time they profess their belief in the sanctity of life they support an illegal war and the death penalty.

The hypocrisy these contradictory positions displays is truly stunning.

I posted the republican party platform statement in the Palin Debate Flowchart thread. It didn't seem to attract much comment and I think that was because the inherent contradictions and outright disregard for observed reality make it too painful for even supporters to publicly affirm it.

I believe Darwin's theory of evolution should be taught in public schools, but as only a theory.

Only a theory? In the scientific language a theory is a model of reality with the highest possible status, something that has been supported by a great number of facts and with a proved predictive power, something that has been so widely demonstrated that it is highly unlikely it will be ever disproved.

I posted that just to make you happy FoetusNail and to have something to do between reading and playing with my kids. I'm not sure if BB would like me to carry the argument further. If I did, I'd just be repeating "canned" Republican comments and those tend to get removed.

I'll try to talk about it a bit though, let's see what happens. Yes, we should provide sex education to kids starting at around age 14. With the abundance of condoms and saran wrap sold in stores, I don't see how access is being limited. If abortion were to be made illegal, and good sex education is taught - emphasizing the importance of abstinence, it should have a good impact on unwanted pregnancies and the spread of STDs. On a woman's right to privacy and control of her body, I have no problem with this, as long as it doesn't effect the life of the baby she is carrying.

Immoral minority - cute catchphrase. There's no hypocrisy in wanting to put a murdering psychopath to death while also wanting to protect the life of an innocent baby.

Why don't the Republican faithful realize this social agenda is never going to be implemented, any more than Alaska is going to secede from the Union.

I suppose the real question, is why do Republicans continue to fall for the blatant pandering of Republican candidates. That they never seem to understand or care their religious beliefs and fear are being exploited to gain support for political and economic agendas is obvious to everyone else. Rove and company's employers must be laughing all the way to the bank.

religious beliefs and fear? My religious beliefs have little to do with my stance on abortion - and I don't believe Republicans want any religion taught in public schools. I don't see how fear comes into play at all.

if mental/emotional security is desired, an unfulfillable platform works better than a realistic one. It banishes fear, focuses hate on outside targets, absolves the true believer, promises eventual salvation.... sound familiar?

"You cannot reason a man out of a position he has not reasoned himself into"

The religion meme is old and powerful. Like any contagious,host dependent organism, it has evolved effective tools to ensure its continuation. When the cells of your body surrender themselves from within to burgeoning, membrane-bursting viral particles there is little the brain and nervous system can do. To meme or virus, you are still just meat.

Takuan, Very little of what I've said today has anything to do with religion.

I'm stepping on dangerous grounds though - I better quit for a bit and give a moderator the chance to give me a warning. I certainly don't want to get suspended again.

"That they never seem to understand or care their religious beliefs and fear are being exploited to gain support for political and economic agendas is obvious to everyone else."

Very few of the people I know have figured this out. That's how we got here.

Tom, quit doing that. Any position, if stated with civility and respect to all members here can be put forward without fear of unreasonable sanction. We have had looong threads on religion and other sticky issues (guns for example) with plenty of civil give and take. Throwing yourself to the lions does not make me Caligula. (though I'd kind of like to be, except for the last bits of course)

I believe it was Bush who stated that every life is precious and the ends don't justify means, so, which is it? And what about that pesky commandment, thou shall not kill? I don't recall it mentioning any exceptions to the rule.

Your feigned fear of moderation is silly.

I have not mentioned your religion, but that of your bretheren. Just what is your agenda? In these few posts you have distanced yourself from almost the entirety of the Values platform you profess to support. This leaves the impression you are willing to compromise your principles to support the criminalization of abortion.

Can anyone reading this of the Socialist persuasion help me understand the best way to communicate to you my opinion which is roughly the complete opposite of the following:

Socialist = Evil and unacceptable, unless it is bailing out Wall St. fat cats.

How can I best communicate to you the idea that "socialism = bad, but corporatism = on